Herbert & Yvonne Solow, and Robert Justman August 1996 interview

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Transcript of interview at StarTrek.com

08.23.1996

Robert Justman, Herbert Solow and Yvonne Fern (Co-Producers and Author)

Herbert Solow and Robert Justman, authors of "Inside Star Trek: The Real Story" and with Yvonne Fern, author of "Gene Roddenberry: The Last Conversation."

Herbert Solow was Executive in Charge of Production for the original Star Trek series, and Robert Justman was Co-Producer. Yvonne Fern, Herb Solow's wife, is an entertainment industry writer.

Question: I'm not familiar with "Inside Star Trek - The Real Story." Perhaps Herbert or Robert could give me a brief synopsis of what it's all about?

Chad_vTrek

Herbert Solow: This is a book that was written by two people, myself - who was head of the studio [Desilu] at the time, the other was Bob Justman; we lived the beginning, middle and end of STAR TREK, and we have a story to tell. We have a narrative that takes the reader back to 1964 that tells a story that takes us through the original Star Trek series.

Q: are there plans for a new trek show in the future if so what are the ideas and when might we expect it to appear? dalill

Robert Justman: I have no idea, to put it in a nutshell. If I know Paramount, they're planning something. Yvonne has her ear to the ground: They may be planning a Borg show, but this is a only a rumor.

Q: Mr. Justman, have you visited the set of the DS9 cross-over episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? Chronon

RJ: Yes, I have visited the set. I just visited there. I was reunited with David Gerrold, who wrote the original episode. He is an extra in this episode. They have re-created the original corridors of the Enterprise. I am told they are doing a routine in the film where the actors in the original film will be interacting with the characters in the current show. It's a Forrest Gump type of thing.

Q: How faithfully did they recreate the old Enterprise?

RJ: Very faithfully. There was a slight difference in the moir? patterns in the panels above the corridors.

Q: How do you feel about a new series exploring territory from the Original series? Tuvok74656

HS: Well, personally, I have no interest in going back to what we did in the original series. There are many, many marvelous ideas out there for series and other concepts, rather than to go back and touch what we originally did, and I don't believe the future could come back to what we did before.

RJ: I thoroughly agree with that. It's my feeling exactly. Why re-tread what we've already done. There's lots of room for new ideas in the universe.

Q: Misters Justman and Solow, if today you still performed the roles you had during the Original Series, might we be seeing any differences in Deep Space Nine and Voyager? Would we even be seeing them? gleknar

HS: You always look back on some things, and think "If I'd have done this or changed that, the direction might be different." The networks have changed what they're doing today because the audiences have changed what they like now, from what they liked then. If I were doing it, I would go back to do more episodes like the original series, based more on drama and dramatic stories than special effects.

RJ: We're more interested in doing people shows.

Q: I'd like to ask Yvonne how she came to write her book, because it was easiest the most moving of the Roddenberry books that came out after his death. geordi1701

Yvonne Fern: First of all, my book was written before his death, three quarters of it. It preceded all the others, but was published afterward. The original concept came from the University of California, when they asked me to write about a figure in popular culture, I thought, having been introduced to Star Trek through my children and seeing its influence on other children, I felt Star Trek had had more influence on more people than any other television show.

Q: Mr. Solow, did you ever think that Star Trek would become the icon it is today? Chad_vTrek

HS: Absolutely not. When we started doing Star Trek, when I first started working with Gene Roddenberry back in 1964, our idea was to produce a commercial action-adventure series that took place in space. We hoped to lay over it interesting concepts, to add values to each episode, and the intent was, in Bill Shatner's voice-over, to be a 5-year voyage. It lasted into the third year, and the ratings had gotten so low that no network would pick it up. It was a valiant try, and we tried very, very hard, and we thought when it went off the air that we had failed. We found out we were wrong, and it was very popular. With Gene speaking around the US, and reruns showing everywhere, it was a big surprise to me. If anyone who was involved in the original series thought that it would have even ten percent of it's current popularity, they should be institutionalized. :)

Q: Were you involved in the making or writing of the new movie coming out? mgeers

ALL: Resounding No.

Q: Is it true that Herb and Yvonne did not meet until after Yvonne wrote her book about Gene? How did this come about? Chronon

YF: Absolutely true, and as you might guess, the books are written from opposite points of view. How we met was coercion of Bob Justman and his wife. I was going out with Jackie Justman, and she suggested and insisted that I meet Herb. We were reluctant to meet each other because Herb had insulted a friend in print, and didn't want to meet another author who'd written such a book on Gene, until he read the book :).

Q: A follow-up to my earlier question: do you believe Paramount has spread Trek too thin for its own good? Will it live for another 30 years? gleknar

HS: I am watching what has been going on all these years with objectivity, since I haven't been a part of it, and writing the book was a return to STAR TREK after many, many years. I am a guest at what STAR TREK is and has become, and I feel that it has gone overboard. Talking to the fans, they feel that when there's too much of a good thing, the good thing is diminished. I'm very sad hearing that, because I think STAR TREK is a good thing, and I think it's being forced out too quickly. I don't think it'll be the same in 30 years.

YF: I don't either. I think the classic series was the only one of its kind, and I don't think it'll be around in 30 years.

RJ: And my response to the first one is "less is more." I think the show has been flogged unmercifully and its going to rebound. The reaction is essentially going to be a negative reaction. If it is around in another 30 years, I don't think it's going to resemble what it has been in the past.

Q: What was it like working with Gene Roddenberry at the beginning? Chronon

HS: I worked with Gene for about 3 years, it took us over 2 years to get the show on the air. I then worked with Gene when he wrote and produced a movie for me at MGM. I liked Gene very, very much, at the beginning we worked very professionally. I didn't know Gene personally, and I found that when I knew him socially, Gene was different, and our working relationship became strained. I last worked with Gene in 1972, so my comments regarding him end at that date.

RJ: I worked with Gene Roddenberry on the production of the shows themselves after the pilot was sold. I spent more time with Gene at work than I did with my family at home. We became very close, but we didn't socialize outside the studio. I liked Gene very much. I think he liked me too. He let me pull a number of practical jokes on him, and he took them graciously, so I liked him even more because of that. On the other hand, Gene did cause some disappointments for some of the people with whom he worked, including me. In later years, near the end of his life, it seemed to me that he was trying very hard to make amends, and I appreciated that very much.

YF: That was actually one of the questions I asked Gene, about his earlier years, and the difference between himself then and now (meaning when I asked him), and he said he was a much nicer human being now (1991) than he had been, and looked with regret on his former years. My impression of him was that he was a gentle, cooperative, and earnest human being at that time, at home in his wheelchair with his family.

Q: So, was Gene Roddenberry really responsible for all that is attributed to him? Does your book address "the man and the myth?" morn8421

HS: The book does address the myth, it does not necessarily address the man, since we were talking in the book of our first-hand experiences with Gene, from about '64 to '72. Gene did have a definite failing, I felt and feel, in that he rarely, if ever, gave credit to anyone else who contributed anything to Star Trek. It was not a definite saying that he did everything at that time (in the '60's), but he would never attribute anything to anyone else. So, by default, the vibes he was sending out in his lectures and interviews, that if you don't talk to the people who are giving you help, then you're saying you did it yourself. There were a number of people who made major contributions to Star Trek, and in the book we try to point that out, not just by saying so, but by reproducing letters from Bob, Gene, me, etc. laying just who made what contributions and when.

RJ: He's exactly right.

YF: For my book, it does address the man; the book is the last conversation with Gene. The conversation was definitely about him and his ideas, and does address what was inside him.

Q: Yes, can you tell us some interesting things that happened during the making of the original series, on the set? Lavendar2

HS: The book is filled with those stories of all the events that happened during the development of the first script, even starting when I took Gene to NBC and sold them on it. We start with that story and go through everything along the way. My answer is to read the book, even if you have to visit the library...that'll give you the entire fill on what exactly happened at that time.

RJ: I could tell you some interesting things that happened, but we would be here until after next Christmas. The best thing to do, as Herb said, is to read the book.

Q: Why was Kirk such a lover boy? DarkJedi104

YF: Art imitates life :)

Q: Since the original show was slated as a "five year mission," what ideas, if any, were originally conceived and never made to the screen? Morn8421

HS: What happened was, based on the original concept Gene had early in '64, we took that concept and made several changes in it before we took it to NBC and they gave us money for a script. We extracted from Gene's original ideas, everything we could, save for a few story lines we never used. One of the problems of the series was that after we used many of the quality science fiction writers in the first year, there weren't really enough sensational quality ideas for us to use, which meant Gene, Bob, I, and everyone associated with the show had to work extra hard. If we had gone a fourth or fifth year, I think Star Trek would've been more and more difficult to do. I think Paramount was wise not continuing Star Trek in the 70's and 80s, but to do a new STAR TREK and bring in new concepts, stories, and characters.

RJ: Really, although all our episodes were "Science Fiction," if you want to be really correct, we were doing a dramatic show. It just happened to take place in the future, but it's still a drama. Each show, each story is about people in conflict. That's the stuff of drama. It always was, it always has been, and it is now.

Q: I'm curious, how big was the budget for the original series? Chad_vTrek

RJ: We can give you the exact figures, but they're meaningless. They're out of context today.

HS: So far as the production people were concerned it wasn't enough, so far as Desilu was concerned, it was too much.

RJ: Still the same old story.

Q: How important or influential was Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz in keeping Star Trek alive? Chronon

HS: Desi Arnaz hadn't been at the studio for several years because of the divorce, and had nothing to do with Star Trek. There are several stories in the book about my relationship with Lucy and Star Trek, and the bottom line is that she put her money on the line to finance the series. She had nothing else to do with Star Trek and had no control or power over decision makers at NBC.

(Well covered in the book)

HS: In fact, during the Desilu days, Star Trek was the first and only development deal we had with NBC, and was the only Desilu series ever on NBC.

Q: Robert, did Gene every pull any practical jokes on you? :D Chad_vTrek

RJ: Yes. I broke down physically in September 1966 because of exhaustion, so I went on the vacation. Herb bought the airplane tickets, and Gene had his hand in a practical joke? In "The Corbomite Maneuver" they're was a monster (Balok). When my wife and I boarded our plane, the monster was in the seat next to me. The drunk in the seat behind me thought it was very funny, the stewardesses thought it wasn't funny, and the pilot didn't think it was funny at all. In fact, he refused to take off until the "monster" was removed from the plane. But if you want to know about even more crazy practical jokes, then read the book!

Q: During Trek's run, we know NBC almost canceled the show after the second season due to poor ratings. In the third season, did NBC try to directly impact the content of the shows in an effort to boost ratings? Did they provide any additional marketing support to try to save the show? rothster

HS: I was the one who was the interface between Star Trek and NBC, and I was in touch with all levels of NBC. I've heard these things over the past few years, one was Gene quoted as saying he wanted to put a dog on the Enterprise. I have never heard anything like that from NBC, and I have never heard them make silly comments about Star Trek. They dealt with Star Trek at an arm's length, so I don't accept any of that rumor to be at all true.

RJ: Actually, the ratings were so bad that there was a good possibility that the show would be canceled after the first season. You have to give credit to NBC for sticking with the show, for both first and second season, even though it lost money doing it.

Q: Bob/Herb, what contributions to Star Trek did the two of you make which we might not properly attribute to you? dcnupe

HS: Some fans don't know, unless they've read the book, that I was the one who bought the original idea from Gene and worked with him on developing his content so it would be a viable television series, and sell it to NBC. I cast the shows with Gene, hired the director with Gene, sold NBC on the pilot, second pilot, and the series, and was in charge of the operation. I find in my travels that most people think Gene had no boss and did the show whichever way he wanted to do it, which wasn't the case. I have to say that I was the man who was working with Gene all along and the influential person in starting and making Star Trek.

Q: Yvonne, this may have been asked already, but was it difficult to convince Gene to allow you to interview him/write "The Last Conversation"? picardO

YF: Not at all; it took one letter describing the nature of the project, and he sounded intrigued and asked me to come to the studio. Everyone said it would be impossible and that he wouldn't do any interviews, but the way he conceived this book was that it was about his mind, not just a biography, and he said "I just want you to write me." It wasn't that difficult.

Q: Did the actors have much input in story lines and character development? tigress8

RJ: Bill has claimed in his book that there was a lot of that. To my knowledge, there was none of that. If there was, it was very little. Leonard (Nimoy) had some concerns about how his character was handled in some of the early episodes, and because of his protests, had Gene make some changes to improve his characterization, on an episode by episode basis. But to my knowledge, Bill Shatner seldom, if ever, had any input into the content of the various episodes.

Q: well, God bless Lucy. Lavendar2

HS: Good! Lucy really did not understand the show; it was very foreign to her and she was watching this thing being done. We'd talk once or twice a week and she never looked away when we were over budget. She was there with the money. No interference whatsoever, in fact as I said in the book, when I gave her the first and second pilot scripts, I don't think she even read them.

Q: Mr. Justman- how do you think the workings of the studio have changed after 30 years? Chip

RJ: The workings of the studio, with the addition of an incredible number of extra executives, have only become more complicated than when we made the original series. Somehow, with a smaller crew, and a smaller staff, we managed to film the episodes in a grunt-over six days. And now, 30 years later, the shows take a minimum of 7 or 8 days to make, sometimes even more.

HS: When I was at Desilu as head of production, that did not mean sitting in an office all day, shuffling papers and arranging lunch. There was no one between me and the producers who worked for me. I spent my days working directly with Gene on Star Trek, and Bruce Geller on Mission: Impossible and Mannix. I was on the sets, on the dubbing stage, seeing the cuts, actually functioning as being a part of each production. I know that in today's productions, because of the layers and echelons in the studios, it's not done. I know that in mine and Bob's time, time was spent with the sets, actors, every part of the productions.

RJ: If a problem arose that needed a solution, Herb could and would walk into Gene's office, or my office, and find a solution. He protected us, took care of us. He was the strong arm between us and the Desilu staff. I've said this before, but Herb has never heard it: I worked with Gene, but I worked FOR Herb.

Q: What inspired you to write "Inside Star Trek - The Real Story" after 30 years? pat_fordyce

HS: After I left Desilu and went on to MGM and doing a lot of TV series and motion pictures, I dropped out of the STAR TREK world and was not a part of it whatsoever. I would read about it and hear about it, and I had last spoken to Gene in '72, although I kept in touch with Bob as a friend. About three years ago, I began hearing about writers writing books about what went on during the original series' production. They didn't really know what went on with us. I was the one who was there and knew what really happened, so I thought I should write a book and put out the real story. One book out there seemed to say that I never came to work some days and didn't have any involvement in Star Trek whatsoever. I felt it had come time to write a book about my involvement in Star Trek, and what really happened, so I enlisted Bob Justman and we wrote a book.

RJ: Well, I had started to, with Steve Poe, and we never finished even writing a presentation, because Steve got busy with several other projects when Star Trek: The Next Generation started. So I put my research on the back burner. Then, later, Herb came by and said he was writing a book, and I said "What about me?"

HS: If you want to reduce it all down to a bottom line, it's that after listening to other authors, I felt it was time to set the record straight.

Q: Do the three of you keep in touch with Majel Roddenberry? How's she been doing since Gene's passing? Tuvok74656

HS: From the last time I saw Majel (in '68), I hadn't seen her for about 29 years, until I met Yvonne.

YF: I obviously knew Majel because I'd met Gene, and most of the research for this book had taken place at Gene's house. I met Majel, we liked each other instantly, and we came best friends. Later on, I was able to re-introduce Herb to Majel.

RJ: I kept in contact sporadically with Majel and Gene over the years.

Q: In the preface of your book you stated that quite a few people had a very different opinion about Gene than what was presented in your book. Do you think, that you got to know the real Gene Roddenberry in the time you spent with him? chronon

YF: I do think that, in fact I know it, and I also know that these people who have a very different opinion of Gene also knew the real Gene Roddenberry. However negative, I respect their opinions and their experience with him. I feel he was a different man when he was 69 as opposed to when he was 29 or 39.

Q: Why were the aliens so funny looking? DarkJedi104

YF: Beauty's in the eye of the beholder, you know...I think they were kinda cute :)

HS: You know, there's a STAR TREK-like show on Saturn, where all the aliens look like humans <g>

RJ: Really disgusting. :-)

Q: What kind of critical response did Star Trek get when it was first aired? chronon

HS: In our book, we print out some of the critique and reviews we got from two influential sources (from a TV and motion picture point of view). The review was in Daily Variety in the September 9th edition (Weekly Variety in New York); they did not like the series, felt it was a bit silly, and predicted its demise fairly quickly. For all the folks in LA, there is a book signing on Wednesday, Sept. 11 at Paramount, and I believe it is open to the public for that purpose. We'll be there from 11:30 to 12:30.

YF: We'll also be at WorldCon in Anaheim between Aug 28 and Sept 1, signing books.

Q: Clearly, there's some revisionist history being presented about Gene. What's the one sentence summary you'd write to describe the man? Morn

YF: Since I didn't know Gene in his early years, I can't make any comparisons. Looking back on his life, I do know that he'd said he had some regrets about some things, and no regrets about others.

Q: Would you like to become more involved with STAR TREK again? lisa_rhew

Herb & Yvonne: No.

RJ: As far as STAR TREK series go, my quote is "Been there, done that."

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